Remotely One - A remote work podcast

Optimizing Flexibility and Productivity in Remote Work with Phase2 CEO Jeff Walpole - ep. 085

• JEFF WALPOLE, RICK HANEY, KALEEM CLARKSON • Season 1 • Episode 85

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In the latest episode of the "Remotely One" podcast, Jeff Walpole, CEO of Phase2, joins hosts Rick and Kaleem for an engaging chat about the evolution and future of remote and hybrid work environments. The entertaining exchange delves into Jeff's extensive experience managing hybrid teams and offers valuable lessons for organizations navigating these new work paradigms.

Jeff's career spans from working on IT projects for the U.S. Navy, EPA, and Department of Defense, to leading Phase2, a digital agency he co-founded in 2001. His background as a musician in a heavy metal hair band named "Without Warning" adds an intriguing twist to his professional journey, sparking nostalgic banter about 80s rock fashion and music icons like Dio and Ratt.

Starting Phase2 shortly after September 11, 2001, Jeff and his co-founders initially worked on-site at the NFL Players Association (NFLPA), developing a system for calculating the NFL salary cap. Their early adoption of remote and flexible work practices, including holding meetings in a Starbucks conference room, laid the groundwork for their future operations.

Phase2 has since grown into a leading digital agency, delivering large-scale, custom software solutions for clients like Fannie Mae, Johnson & Johnson, and the Smithsonian!

For remote enthusiasts, the trio deeply explore Phase2's transition to remote-first operations. Originally having a significant office presence, the company gradually reduced office space in response to the rise of remote work, accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Now, their Arlington headquarters is mostly empty, reflecting a strategic shift to accommodate diverse work preferences.

By fostering a culture that values flexibility, purposeful meetings, and strong client relationships, Phase2 has successfully navigated the challenges of remote work while continuing to innovate in the digital space. Through action, Phase2 underscores the importance of intentionality in remote work!

The pandemic was a turning point, forcing everyone to experience remote work and fostering greater empathy for remote team members. This universal shift helped overcome the final barriers to a more inclusive hybrid work culture. Phase2 even created the "Phase2 Remote Work Playbook," a resource made freely available during the pandemic. This playbook, drawing from their long history with remote work, offered technical tips and cultural advice for effective remote meetings, helping other companies navigate the sudden shift to remote work.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the practicalities and philosophies of managing hybrid and remote work environments. Jeff's emphasis on flexibility, empathy, and productivity provides a valuable framework for organizations adapting to these models. Join the conversation and discover why adapting to the unique needs of remote and hybrid teams is crucial for ensuring all employees feel included and empowered to do their best work!

Learn more about Jeff:

Jeff:

How are you?

Kaleem:

I'm okay, man. You look great. You look exactly the same, dude. You're supposed to get older.

Jeff:

No, last time you saw me was on the remote DrupalCon thing. And you commented, I remember while I was talking on one of the sessions, you commented that it looked like Anderson Cooper with my. I had, I had a swoosh, a swoosh going of, of, of white, of gray hair. Yeah. You were like, look at Jeff with his Anderson Cooper going

Kaleem:

I mean,

Rick:

oh, he's a silver fox.

Jeff:

He is. I, that's what the, that's what, that's what I call myself. Silver Fox.

Kaleem:

I mean, you're not too shabby, Jeff. That's why, you know, that's, that's why I say you're not too shabby. Yeah. I mean,

Jeff:

Well, I'm getting up there, but, uh, yeah, no, my goal is to, offset the gray hair with anything else I can.

Rick:

I don't understand the not too shabby. I don't get it.

Kaleem:

Me

Rick:

shabby mean, first of all? And if you're too shabby, does that mean you're just a degenerate piece of shit? I don't know. I don't think so. It's like, Oh, it's not half bad. Well, is it half good at least,

Jeff:

Yeah, yeah.

Rick:

you know?

Jeff:

in his Hanukkah song. And after that, it became like a thing everybody says.

Rick:

True. It's gotta be a New England thing, Kaleem. It's gotta

Kaleem:

Definitely, definitely. Do you remember the Hanukkah song that he did, Rick?

Rick:

Uh, he said, um, Oh, who was it that was a quarter

Jeff:

Harrison Ford.

Rick:

Oh, yeah. He goes, Harrison Ford's a quarter Jew. Not too

Jeff:

shabby. Yeah. Yeah.

Kaleem:

That is great, man.

Rick:

Welcome back, everyone, to Remotely One. I am your co host, Rick Haney, joined by my esteemed colleague and co host, Kaleem Clarkson. Hey, buddy.

Kaleem:

fly away, fly

Rick:

excited?

Kaleem:

I am excited.

Rick:

Don't fly away, man. I need you here. I couldn't do this without

Kaleem:

Okay. Yes, you could. You're the voice of remote work, sir. Of course you could do this without me.

Rick:

I mean, yeah, but, I mean, come on. This is like a ying and yang kind of thing, right?

Kaleem:

It really is. It really is or salt and pepper. You know what I mean?

Rick:

Oh, you know, we should have called the show Ebony and Ivory.

Kaleem:

Oh, Ebony And ivory!

Rick:

maybe we shouldn't have. Hey, everybody, since you know how to find us, do us a huge favor and go to rate this podcast. com forward slash remotely one. And just leave us a review. We would be so appreciative of that. Again, rate this podcast. com forward slash remotely one. And if you could do that for us, we would be ever so thankful. Since 2015, remotely one is one of the largest communities of remote work professionals with over 3000 slack members. And 5, 000 email subscribers. And if I'm not mistaken, that number is still climbing. It's free to join. go check, it out remotely one. com. And with that out of the way, Colleen, why don't you give us a teaser to about today's guest?

Kaleem:

Oh man. I just

Rick:

Take a deep breath. Take a deep breath. You're scared, aren't you, honey? You're scared,

Kaleem:

dude. Like my shirt's all soaked through. I got the, the maxi pad shirt on with the maxi pads underneath. Oh, man, I'm so nerve up. Our guest makes me so nervous. But today, Rick, our guests, they're originally from Concord, Massachusetts. So they're a fellow mass asshole.

Rick:

Oh, wicked. Wicked pissa.

Kaleem:

Maniacs and mass assholes together, sir. We're we're, we're okay. We're all right.

Rick:

Let's see where this goes.

Kaleem:

think it's going to go pretty well. I think it's going to go pretty well. Um, our guests, they currently reside in Arlington, Virginia though. So, you know, guest? Is that the South guest?

Jeff:

Uh, I believe it is.

Rick:

I would think so, yes.

Kaleem:

pretty sure it's pretty sure. I know it's warmer in Virginia than it is in Maine. That's for damn sure.

Rick:

Yeah. And Concord, Mass. Concord.

Kaleem:

Conquered, Conquered. Our guests, they started their career as a consultant back in the day, doing large scale government it projects back then, like for the U S Navy, the EPA, U S department of defense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They know what they're doing. Mm. But Rick, just like both of us. Okay. Our guest is a former musician. Rick.

Rick:

Ooh. Tell me more.

Kaleem:

Oh yeah. Our guests, they were in a heavy metal hair band.

Rick:

What for? Like the eighties heavy metal hair bands.

Kaleem:

you, telling you like with Dio rat, they

Rick:

Oh my God. Yeah.

Kaleem:

jacket. They even had the cigarettes rolled up in the shirt. They played guitar and the band name. Rick, you ready? You ready? The band name without warning.

Rick:

Oh my God, that's so eighties.

Kaleem:

It's so eighties. It's so eighties. I'm disappointed. I never knew this about our guests when I first met them. Wow. Guests do you have a video of this band?

Jeff:

Not that I'm aware of. I don't think there's any video evidence. There's only audio evidence, and it's not good.

Rick:

You know, I was praying that you were gonna tell us that somewhere there's like a blown out pair of leather pants and a T-shirt with like a claw mark. agro going across the chest where it's ripped to shreds,

Jeff:

Yeah.

Kaleem:

Oh my gosh. I could think of his, uh, the dude from Prince there. Oh my gosh. I love that.

Rick:

versus the blouses.

Kaleem:

But Rick, after our guest was famous being in 80s metal band. Okay. In 2001, he founded phase two, which is a digital agency. And listen to the brands that this damn company has worked with. You ready?

Rick:

Mm. Whoa.

Kaleem:

Fannie Mae, MLS, Johnson and Johnson, the PAC 12, the U. S. Department of Energy and the Smithsonian. Okay.

Rick:

Those are

Kaleem:

get big.

Rick:

names, my friend.

Kaleem:

No, no, we get big guests. Here's what we do, Rick. We get big guests,

Rick:

Well, we're aiming for the stars.

Kaleem:

Oh, the stars is where we're going. Listeners and viewers, please give a warm welcome to the CEO of Phase 2, Mr. Jeff Walpole!

Rick:

Oh, yeah!

Kaleem:

Woo! Settle down, studio

Rick:

All right, kids. Settle Down Down in front. down.

Kaleem:

Quiet down. back there. Quiet down.

Jeff:

All right.

Kaleem:

Woo! Thanks for

Jeff:

That is a hell of an intro. A hell of an intro. Wow.

Kaleem:

We try.

Rick:

Yeah, well, we're trying to get on your level see? We're doing this big. We're trying to elevate ourselves as well as you for coming on the show.

Kaleem:

Yep.

Jeff:

well, it's not hot if you try.

Rick:

Oh, nothing's hard, nothing's impossible, either. You gotta put in

Jeff:

No, it's

Rick:

Chief, right?

Kaleem:

accent never dies, bub. It never dies. It downloads.

Jeff:

you just gotta work for it.

Rick:

Do people look at you like, where the hell did you come from if you talk like that in

Jeff:

Uh, no, I don't know. I, I saw somewhere online, uh, Boston accent was rated the sexiest accent.

Kaleem:

wait. I remember that I've,

Jeff:

rated it that way.

Kaleem:

no, no, for real. Like the, I remember that. I think it might've been in like even the rolling stone that, but like it, Texas was like number two, but new England was number one. They love the car and the park. Yeah.

Rick:

I thank Maki Mak for about everything.

Kaleem:

Yes, you

Rick:

He's got them good vibrations. Good vibrations, chief.

Jeff:

Yeah, hey uh, true story. I went to high school with a girl who was one of the backup singers in the Funky Bunch. Doing the good vibration background, yeah.

Kaleem:

have been something.

Jeff:

She was cool. Tamika powers. Yeah. I was scared to death of her.

Kaleem:

He remembers her name specifically.

Rick:

He's still afraid to talk badly about her.

Jeff:

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. She'll hurt you.

Kaleem:

Tamika. Tamika. if you're out hit Jeff up. He just wants, He just wants to hang out. don't, don't don't listen to him.

Jeff:

Don't, don't, don't hit me. Just say hi.

Rick:

Amazing, amazing. Well, Jeff, thank you so much for being a part of this. I don't know what kind of operation this is, but we're going to find out by the end of the show. Right, Kaleem?

Kaleem:

Oh, We're

Rick:

Yeah. Absolutely. Hey, we've got a bunch of questions, but before we begin, I want to, I have one right off the top. In your blog, you mentioned there's a specific reference to remote first does not mean remote only. Can you expand upon that viewpoint and also about your perspective on gathering with intention?

Jeff:

Yeah. I mean, okay. So we weren't always a remote first company, right? We had a, we had an office at one point that had the capacity to get up to about a hundred people, comfortably, very comfortably, and we had a whole floor of a building. We started hiring people remotely and that trend never stopped and COVID just accelerated the whole thing, but we maintained offices for a long time in different areas of the country. And, uh, so I think like the only office we have left is our headquarters here in Arlington and it's sparsely attended, I think, would be generous. But the idea is that, we want to provide environments where people can work at their best. Right? So, whether it is in an office, or it's at home, it should be comfortable. It should work for you. And I think the other aspect of it, the intentionality is about. Making the best use of time. So what we did a couple of years ago in response to what we're hearing from employees who were working remotely was too many meetings, right? So the idea was, how do we reinvent our meeting culture and break the habit of bad meetings, getting into a space where, like, for instance, when you show up for a meeting, you've got an agenda and everybody knows why they're there. You don't over invite or under invite, just the right people are there, show up on time, you have an agenda, you get through the work, and something gets done, right, instead of meeting to meet. You know, these days, it's just too easy to go on Slack and say, hey. You can jump on a hangout or a Zoom and like, let's just talk about this. And so we were trying to break that distraction that it created for employees to just get pinged and then sucked into a Zoom to go solve something.

Rick:

Interesting. In regard to phase two, you started that in 2001, I believe?

Jeff:

Correct. 2001, just a couple of weeks after September 11th.

Rick:

Yeah, okay. So, was that your first experience with remote work, or did you go back farther than that?

Jeff:

Well, I'm trying to think. Yeah, yeah, it was actually everywhere. I worked before that. It was required that you'd be in the office. And of course, we're going pretty far back. Right? So you're talking 90s now. My 1st job at um system integrators, you mentioned doing government work not only did you have to be on site, but when I started, you had to wear a suit and tie and, you know, you had to wear that every day to work. Yeah, it's a far cry from my prior experiences.

Kaleem:

you decide to create this agency in in, in 2001, and you know. A digital agency is a very broad, right? A really broad term. I don't want to simplify your agency by any means, but for some of those people out there, they build websites, they build apps, they build anything that's digital on, on the web. Can you just talk about when you started the organization, how did you even start experimenting with the idea of not Being in an office, office, right? Like like you just explained, you had a, a career of going to work in a suit and tie. How did flexibility even come about in those early years? I mean, obviously you told us you did have an office. So then how did you even start creating, um,

Jeff:

Yeah, so so when we 1st started the company, the founders and I were all working for another agency. We didn't call it an agency back then. I think we called it a web development shop or something. But our primary client that I worked on and folks worked on with me was the NFL Players Association, and that was downtown D. C. Yeah, so we were actually built, building the salary cap system for the NFL, so the only system that calculates the salary cap, so high stakes, we were on site there, and we were doing our work on site, and they, we just kind of took over the law library there, it was like this Dark internal conference room and the 4 of us would sit around the table with our laptops and that was like our place. Like, we own this dark little room. And so we were remote to begin with when our prior company fell apart after September 11th, we started this company out of the asses of that. So we went to the head of the Players Association and we said, who is Hall of Famer Gene Utshaw? And we said, hey, I got some good news and some bad news. The good news is the system's ready for the 2001 season or we were in the 2001 season, but it was good enough to make it through. Bad news is we have more work to do and would you hire us if we could build a company? And he said, yes. And he cut us a check and I went down the street and found a bank and we started, and that's, we started from this. We weren't working in our own office, we were working in someone else's office, right? And then we would have to have business meetings that weren't about that client. And we felt bad about having those meetings in their space. So we only did their work in the space. And so we had to find another space. So we got an office called Starbucks. And it was, it was free, more or less. I don't know if it was totally free. I mean, you had to. Get a buy some stuff. There was actually a Starbucks near my apartment in DC on Capitol Hill that had an upstairs conference room. And if you made a donation to charity, you could rent the conference room for an hour at a time. so we made a lot of donations to a lot of charities and we use this conference room upstairs in Starbucks. And that was like our place, that we met. So that was definitely a very early remote experience for the company from, you know, day one, like literally founded that way, 22.

Kaleem:

years ago, that just even sound right. That you were doing this 22 years ago. And just to clarify, you're just throwing out the NFL PA just very lightly and casually. Are you telling me? You helped build a software for the NFL PA to manage the salary cap. Am I hearing that correctly?

Jeff:

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And, And, we continued to manage and maintain that custom software that we wrote for it. I mean, I want to say seven, eight years into the company. So they were a client for a long time and the system did more than that too. It calculated royalties and marketing activities and things like that. So we had financial transactions as well. It was a very, yeah. Interesting, bespoke custom system that we loved. I mean, it was like, it was our baby, you know, we managed that thing for years.

Rick:

What was it like working with those high level, high profile people? That must have been fairly intimidating up front.

Kaleem:

from Starbucks at that.

Jeff:

from Starbucks. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, know, like what's interesting is, it's like you get in, it's like any client you get into, you start to kind of take the facade of the brand that you know, and you, and that sort of falls away and you get to know the people and they're regular people and they're people like you and you develop friendships. Um, just some really awesome people there that we, you know, to this day, you know, I think are just some of the greatest people we've ever worked with. There are wonderful human beings, but, the interesting thing is then learning the business, right? So like you learn the business of like football, and in this case, you have sort of a labor versus management type model that comes out of the South out of the collective bargaining agreement. So the NFLPA is like the union that represents the players and their interests and the league is like management. Right? And so there is a negotiation that goes back and forth. And in this case, the salary cap was a key component of that. It's, you know, part of the business rule of how it all comes together. You have to maintain a cap on cost per team to create the kind of competitive environment that they want to have in the sport. And so, getting into that and the rules, it's like the book was like, literally the book is this thick. And I remember like in the early days, like. They just like, gave us the book and I gave it to my partner, one of our co founders, Scott Hockett, who's one of the most brilliant human beings on earth. And I just gave him the book and I said, your job is to learn this whole set of laws and rules. Oh, and then we have to turn it into software. And so that was like how we got started with it, but it was really neat. Those were very special early days and they definitely had an impact on who we became as a company.

We'll be right back after these words. 2020 was no joke. It changed the game for everyone. Workplace flexibility is no longer a perk, but an expectation. In fact, a recent study showed that a flexible schedule is more important than salary. Yeah, you heard that right? Employees want choices over cash. If you're a startup or a small business that doesn't have a remote work strategy, stop what you're doing right now and complete our free tree assessment at blendmeinc. com. Since 2013, blendmeinc. com has been helping small businesses improve the remote employee experience. Let's stay local, but compete global. Visit us at blendmeinc. com. That's blendmeinc. com. Ever wonder how certain ads catch your attention or get stuck in your head? It's because the person voicing it knows how to tell the story. Maybe they're telling you to STUMBLE OVER TO SULLIVAN ST. PATRICK'S DAY FOR GREEN BEERS, IRISH CAR BOMBS, AND CON BEEF ALL FREAKIN DAY! Don't miss the deal of a lifetime this President's Day at Callahan Ford. Savings like these should be unconstitutional. Or maybe Or, here at Brooks Brothers Mortuary, we put the fun in funeral. Everyone is just dying to join us. All right, well that's a bit much, but for you, I'll do it. I'm Rick Haney, and if you're a business owner looking for a creative voice in your marketing, look no further. I'll tell your story the way you want it told. Follow along at RemotelyWeAreOne or visit my website at rickhaney. me for more information. And now, back to the show.

Kaleem:

Jeez. So kind of going back to those days, um, just kind of knowing the progression of phase two from the Drupal community. Shout out to the Drupal community. Open source software. You know, it's free software for our audience who may not know open source, it's free software that the community contributes and maintains, uh, Jeff, can you talk about some of the leadership lessons that you learned around remote work that, that you took from working in an open source community? what are some of the things that you took from that? That allowed you all to kind of transition to more of a flexible workspace.

Jeff:

Yeah. That's interesting. There's definitely a connection, right? I think, between open source and working remotely and certainly culturally that idea of freedom, you know, you could start with that and just think about how that works, but open source software in the case of Drupal is being built. And managed by a distributed team of people all around the world. So in the case of the Drupal project, you have a million people around the world that are contributing to the, to that software, right? And they could be in Kuala Lumpur for all we know. So the concept of an office, or even in that case, a company doesn't exist. It is a community of people who by their very nature are distributed. Right? And remote. And in some cases there are not just time zone challenges, but there are language differences. So, when you go to go to a DrupalCon as Kaleem, I know you've, I know you've been, you get this awesome experience of these people who come from all over the world that have this shared interest. But yeah, the sense of like, you know, an office is like, you know, is foreign in some cases it's literally, we do this work from wherever we are and it all gets contributed. Thanks to the beauty of the Internet and how we can collaborate on GitHub. And of course, didn't start on GitHub. That was a lot later thing, but, but through distributed means. So I think there's a direct connection. I think as a company, we. We started with the idea that people can do productive work from wherever they are, and that was influenced in part by the experiences that we had not just in the Drupal community, but prior communities, open source communities as well. Once you see the productivity that occurs in writing software distributed across the world, you no longer think that you need to be standing across a desk from somebody to get something done. Right.

Kaleem:

Yeah, it is fascinating. I remember my first time I, cause I, I fell into it to Drupal and open source by accident. Like a lot of people, you know, I was doing some university work and they're like, go check out this thing. The first event I went to, I was like, wait, all these people work for different companies. And some of these people actually just don't work at all. They're just freelancers and they're all volunteering their time from all over the world to contribute to this thing. It really is fascinating. And I could not believe like how it all came together and it could work. So it's a really, really interesting story.

Rick:

Yeah, Jeff, you're obviously a well seasoned remote work veteran. You've been at this for, what, just over two decades now. What are some of the biggest challenges and struggles and I guess maybe even like growing pains that you've had as You know leading a distributed team

Jeff:

I think, you know, one thing that, that it took us a while to learn up front when we were hybrid in the sense that, We did have offices and then we had remote employees as well, but initially until we learned how to do this culturally, the playing field wasn't even so little things matter. Like, for example, you go into a conference room when you're, you know, let's say there's 10 people in a meeting and 5 of them are in a conference room and 5 of them are remote. It's natural to just sit down and face each other at the table and in some cases. People would just turn their back to the camera. Right? And so it's the stuff that we had to learn doing it the hard way. We would get feedback from employees and they would say, hey, they were so happy to work from home back then. Right? It was like, they didn't want to, you know, they don't want to rock the boat. Right? So it was like, really subtle, like. Hey, I really like the freedom that I have, but like, you know, could you not sit in front of the camera because it makes me feel a little alienated, you know, so it's like things like that. Those are the things we learned over time. And a lot of it honestly came down to just awareness, awareness of like time zones, for instance, when you set meetings, awareness around, like, The things that people can't pick up on. So the nonverbal cues, right? The facial expressions, the side talking, the, Oh, well, we pre gamed this in the kitchen, you know, like that kind of stuff, you know, yeah, it's difficult for people to understand until they get in that environment. And then. You know, I think the great thing for us, not the great thing, I'll just say the silver lining about COVID is that, there's no one left who hasn't experienced being on the other end of that, right? So now everybody has some sense and some empathy of what it feels like to be the remote person in a hybrid call or meeting, right? And so I, you know, I feel like that was the last barrier that we needed was for no one to not be that person for some period of time and know all of it. But again, we were doing this a long time before that. So it does make me sometimes wonder where there are still things that we needed to work through. And I'm sure there were that we weren't aware of until that happened.

Kaleem:

Wow. Wow. Right. Because all that time, you know, you're just grinding, doing big projects, making it happen. And wasn't until 2020 where everyone was forced to be fully remote, that you were able to see some of those cracks. Kind of commenting on that piece. Do you feel, just kind of want to get your opinion on where do you feel like this remote work thing is heading now that everyone has experienced that, right? Like, like, where do you think we're going next? What's the next iteration? We're seeing a lot of return to office. Do you think that sticks? Do you think the workforce will ultimately kind of drive the change? What are your thoughts? Thanks. Bye. Right,

Jeff:

I'm definitely on the side of, I think it's here to stay. I think hybrid will be a preferred model for most companies. And I think where the details are going to have to get worked out is, what are the rules of hybrid? When can you be hybrid? When can you elect to come in or not? So what I hear most people saying these days is, require people to come in on. Tuesdays and Thursdays, right? And I, I don't know about that. That's, that doesn't work for us. And the reason it doesn't work for us is because the whole philosophy that we have is that you should be working where you can do your best work at the moment that you're doing it. So let's just say, for instance, you have a giant presentation to a client on Friday, maybe Thursday is a great day to be work from home heads down because you're in that really good production mode. Right? Or conversely, maybe you and a few other people. Really want to get together and prepare for that, and it makes sense for all of you to come in and be in one place so you can work together, right? Whether that's the office or, you know, coffee shop or whatever. So, our philosophy isn't about requirement. It's not about when we want you to be in a certain place. It's about When and where are you going to do your best work and that really is going to be up to the individual. And so that's why I don't think this hybrid set of rules that people are laying out is going to be the most productive option for employees, which isn't to say that companies aren't going to get away with requiring it to work that way.

Kaleem:

right, right, like, so you're on the side of if you're going to have an office make it 100 percent choice. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but like, when you're talking about hybrid, are you kind of leaning towards, Hey, if it's going to be successful, it needs to be choice.

Jeff:

I think, yeah, use it when it suits you. Use it when it's appropriate. It's an asset, right? So one of the things that we love about our building and the whole reason, honestly, I don't know the whole reason, but one of the big reasons I even chose to renew our lease, was that there's a great conference facility in the first floor and they have these really nice laid out rooms, beautiful, like totally renovated, and a nice, like, just common area you can hang out with couches and stuff like that. So a lot of the times we use it, like, I'll have my executive team, some of whom live in other places, they'll fly in and we'll do our workshop there, right? We're not even using the space that we rent upstairs. We're just using the conference area that comes with the rent because it's so nice. Um, so, you know, that's an example of a time when you might want to do that. Right? But then the next day, they'll fly home and. I'll get up and I'll work here and I won't go into the office because, I feel like it's a good day for me to get stuff done, from the meeting, get my notes, speak, you know, be comfortable, kind of be in my space because I'm out of meeting mode and now I'm into post meeting mode. And so I feel like that's what works best from a personal productivity perspective So back to your question to me, what's the future? I'm not sure that all companies or all leadership of companies that are mandating a hybrid policy on certain days are thinking about the productivity of an individual so much as they're thinking about, oh, we got to hang on to our culture. So these are the days we see each other. These are the days we don't, right? And I think that's the wrong philosophy.

Kaleem:

I agree. I agree. 100%.

Rick:

the phase two remote work playbook Which is free and open to anyone who's interested. What was it that motivated you to create such an amazing resource?

Jeff:

Uh, open source. So, as we talked about, you know, open source has a culture of contribution, whether it be code or documentation or knowledge. Right? And I would say that I haven't opened that in a while. I'm guessing it's a little bit out of date just to be honest because we did that during covid. In large part, because we've been doing remote for so long that we've gathered up a lot of this stuff internally in our own documentation, everything from how to have good headphones to making sure that your camera settings are good. And then it was like, all of the cultural things about setting the meetings and the stuff that we've talked about. And we just thought, like, hey, what we see right now, when COVID hit is. Mainly our clients struggling to move into that environment with no experience. And we thought, all right, well, we got all this stuff that we give new employees. Let's just package it up and let's put it on the internet and let's just give it to people. And then. People that work with our clients can send that directly to them as a pdf and say, Hey, we want you to have this and maybe it'll help you in your transition. and it turned into really good conversations with our clients at a time. And we really needed to be having those because we couldn't meet with them in person. And so this became a facilitator of non everyday work conversations. So, in addition to talking about the budget for the project or talking about, you know, testing the code or, you know, having a design review, now we can also consult to you on weight on things that we've learned about working remotely. That hopefully we can impart on you, like best practices and things you haven't thought about and clients really appreciated it because it really came across honestly, as like, like you said, it was like a free gift. It's like, we learned all this stuff. Here it is.

Kaleem:

We can help you.

Jeff:

Yeah, we can help you, right? Like we see how you're struggling with this. It's not easy to do in one day, especially if you're a big company.

Kaleem:

For thinking about that and I'm sure internally you're like, geez, we're sending this all the time to our employees as we're onboarding them. Why not just like, let everybody have a, so, kudos to you for all the stuff that you've been doing really good stuff.

Rick:

Amazing. So Jeff, could you share with us a comical or inspiring moment that you've had while working remotely?

Jeff:

Um, yeah, you can't see him right now, but I've got my golden retriever here laying on the floor Yeah,

Kaleem:

Good dog.

Jeff:

I've got two of them. I've got a puppy now, too. So I've got two of these guys running around here But I did have a client meeting one time and this was This is about probably two years ago and he's walking around behind me and, you know, at one point I had commented about a dog and the guy said, oh yeah, bring him out. It's great that he's here. It's great that you have your dog behind you in the meeting and all that. And, you know, they're all looking at him, admiring him and he's walking around and they're like, what's he doing? And all of a sudden he just barfs all over the floor. It's just like everywhere. Uh, Yeah, just kind of

Kaleem:

And it's like the dog noise,

Jeff:

yeah, the noise and the just, yeah, it's yellow bile and it's just, yeah, there's toys in there, you know, half eaten, you know, and it was like, and you know, like, everybody's watching because they're all like, look at him. He's so cute, you know, and then that just happens. It's like, ooh,

Kaleem:

It's such a massachusetts, it's such a massachusetts story too, although you're not in mass, you know what I mean? Wicked Bob, that's great

Rick:

Fricking dog puked all over the carpet again.

Jeff:

Wicked lot of puke coming out of him.

Kaleem:

I just wish that like, in my mind, I can hear like the tones of the people like, Oh, Oh, the dog is so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And it's like, blah, and then they just start crying. Oh my God, is Ruffy okay? Is Ruffy alright? Oh

Jeff:

yeah. Right. Right. Exactly.

Rick:

there's always one guy that says, I haven't seen that much puke since Gappy's Lickers.

Jeff:

Oh

Kaleem:

one, Jeff. Good one. I think that's the first good dog one. We've had

Jeff:

it's hard to rebound from that, like without, you know. Let's say a little disruption to the meeting

Rick:

Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Well, Jeff, you've been a tremendous guest. We've learned so much from you. We can't thank you enough for coming on the show. And certainly for tolerating our juvenile humor.

Jeff:

now. I'm right there with you. I appreciate it.

Rick:

Oh, good, good, good. Where can our listeners and our audience, where can we find you?

Jeff:

Uh, well, definitely on LinkedIn and, you know, I'm not doing the X thing anymore. I've got an account, but don't really use it. But, um,

Kaleem:

I get you. I get you.

Jeff:

yeah, I think, you know, I want people to check out my company phase two technology. com. I mean, we're doing great stuff and I, that's probably where I would like people to go.

Kaleem:

Awesome man Jeff. Thank you so much. It's great seeing you next time. I'm up in the Northeast. I'll hit you up I appreciate you coming on

Jeff:

Thank you, man.

Kaleem:

All right, man. I'll talk to you later. Peace!

People on this episode

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Kaleem Clarkson

Co-host
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Rick Haney

Co-host