How Remote How Was Born: Iwo Szapar on AI Integration, and Global Nomadism - ep. 096

Join hosts Rick Haney and Kaleem Clarkson for a lively and insightful chat with Iwo Szapar, the CEO and co-founder of Remote How. Together, they dive into a conversation brimming with humor, camaraderie, and deep insights into the ever-evolving future of work. Iwo, a trailblazer in remote work advocacy and an expert in AI integration takes us on a journey from his hometown of Gdynia, Poland, to becoming a global thought leader. With a resume boasting over 3,000 companies—including heavyweights like Walmart, Microsoft, and ING Bank—Szapar has been at the forefront of helping businesses navigate the complexities of remote and hybrid work.

Iwo reflects on his international adventures, which began with a work opportunity in Austin, Texas, and blossomed into a nomadic lifestyle that has seen him living in 15 countries across Asia, Europe, and beyond. His travels, driven by a passion for experiencing diverse cultures and broadening his perspective, have deeply influenced his approach to remote work. From the vibrant streets of Vietnam to the serene landscapes of Colombia, he has witnessed firsthand the global shift toward remote work, a trend that surged during the COVID-19 pandemic.

The spark that ignited Remote How in 2017—a time when remote work was still gaining traction—was fueled by the growing demand among millennials for work flexibility and the challenges companies faced in attracting talent. Remote How was born with a clear mission: to empower individuals and organizations to fully embrace the freedom that remote work offers.

As one of the early adopters of the digital nomad lifestyle, Iwo shares his insights into the unique challenges and rewards of this way of life. He also traces the remarkable evolution of Remote How and its significant impact on the remote work landscape. From its inception with the Remote Future Summit—the largest virtual conference on remote work at the time—to the launch of the Remote How Academy, the world’s first certification program for remote workers, Iwo has been committed to equipping individuals and companies with the skills and knowledge necessary to excel in a distributed work environment.

Now the Remote Work rocket continues to soar and the intersection of AI and remote work becomes increasingly inevitable. For Iwo, AI is set to reshape industries, emphasizing that AI should be seen as a tool for empowerment rather than a threat. But despite being a visionary, Iwo remains grounded in the reality of uncertainties surrounding the future of work, particularly with the rapid advancement of AI. Traditional career paths, like software engineering, which were once considered secure, are now being challenged by the rise of AI.

This must-listen episode is perfect for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of remote work, the challenges of organizational change, and the transformative potential of AI. Szapar’s unique insights and experiences offer valuable guidance for navigating these complex and rapidly changing environments. Whether you’re a remote work enthusiast, a digital nomad, or simply curious about the future of work, this episode is packed with knowledge and inspiration to help you embrace the future with confidence and creativity.

Learn more about Iwo:

• Iwo’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iwoszapar/
• Remote How: https://www.remote-how.com/
• Remote-First Institute: https://www.remote-first.institute/

Transcript

Kaleem: 0:35

where are you originally from?

Iwo: 0:36

from Poland,

Kaleem: 0:37

is there a city you represent? All

Iwo: 0:41

I'm a seaside

Rick: 0:42

He ain't ever gonna pronounce that.

Kaleem: 0:44

right, let's try it. Say it again, One more time, one more time. Dynxed.

Rick: 0:55

Nope. This

Kaleem: 1:00

Oh, g'dynxed. G'dynxed. This is the best part of the show. He loves it. You love you. You do not. You're going to play this over and over for your Polish, for your Poland. This is dumb motherfucking American. Can't even get the shit. Good. Thanks. Poland. Let's go, baby. Let's go.

Rick: 1:32

Welcome back, everyone, to Remotely One. I am your host, Rick Haney, joined by my esteemed colleague, Kaleem Clarkson. What's going on, brother?

Kaleem: 1:41

I just love to fly. I love to fly.

Rick: 1:44

an eagle. Hey, everybody. It's good to be back in the booth. My brother from another mother. Hey, since you know how to find us, do us a huge favor. Go to ratethispodcast. com forward slash remotely one and leave us a review. Not a big deal. Won't take more than five seconds of your life. Again, rate this podcast dot com forward slash RemotelyOne, and we would be ever so grateful. Since 2015, RemotelyOne is one of the largest communities of remote work professionals, with over 2, 500 Slack members and 4, 000 email subscribers. That's huge.

Kaleem: 2:21

Mm.

Rick: 2:22

those are good numbers. I like that. It's free to join. So go check it out at remotelyone. com and with that stuff out of the way, Kaleem, please, if you would, give us a tease or two about today's special guest.

Kaleem: 2:35

Mm. Mm. You know what,

Rick: 2:37

the zone, folks. He's in the zone.

Kaleem: 2:39

Ooh, Ooh. I put my shirt on. I put my podcast shirt on with the colors. So, you know, just shining bright for today's guests because today's guest is cool as ish. Today's guest still love loves the frosted tip hairstyle, still looking great. I mean, our guest today is Ish. I don't want to say it a trendsetter. I guess today's a trendsetter, Rick. they are originally from Poland, Rick. I guess today's originally from Poland and danxed. Thanks.

Rick: 3:09

Oh, oh, oh, okay.

Kaleem: 3:12

Yep. By the sea. By the sea, dude. Yep.

Rick: 3:16

I love, that's a great Polish accent by the way.

Kaleem: 3:18

Yes. Yes. Is it? Yes,

Rick: 3:23

I am part of by the sea.

Kaleem: 3:25

by the sea by the sea. All right. Um, our guest is also a contributing writer for we worked. Rick, I guess today's also an Arthur, bro. They wrote books and author and author. Yes, a Writer a writer of books. It's good, too. I got one. I have a copy. I should show everybody, but I'm not going to. It's awesome. The book is called Remote work is the way. Check it out. I was very, very, very lucky to get an early copy. So thank you. He's helped over 3000 companies, Rick 3000 companies and has been a remote work advisor for, I don't know, ING bank, just a little company, Walmart, just a tiny business, Microsoft. If you haven't heard of them.

Rick: 4:21

That's

Kaleem: 4:23

So again, Rick, although our guest is cool as ish, just chilling. I had to put on two shirts today. I had to put on two shirts.

Rick: 4:31

That's big time. I can feel the perspiration from here.

Kaleem: 4:34

These have pads in them, Rick, so I don't sweat through them. That's right. I had to put it on because I'm so nervous.

Rick: 4:41

it's no wonder we're so successful.

Kaleem: 4:46

Rick. Our guest is also the founder at the Saudi AI leadership forum,

Rick: 4:50

Wow. That's, a huge accomplishment.

Kaleem: 4:53

Yeah. We got to talk about that. Oh, something that we learned about our guest today is that he's addicted to American and European politics. Just addicted to it. He just keeps Googling it, watching it like it's a TV show. I mean, I guess I understand. I guess I understand. I mean, we've seen some ish,

Rick: 5:12

It's the most entertaining shit in the world. I mean, let's be honest.

Kaleem: 5:16

but he doesn't know why he keeps doing it to himself because it is emotional. It's an emotional investment. It's like you're up and then you're down, you're up and down. Um, Oh, He has called 15 countries his home. 15 countries. Yeah,

Rick: 5:33

So he's a world traveler.

Kaleem: 5:35

Right, right. He loves dogs. He loves Keanu Reeves and Point Break. Because he loves to surf. And you know what I mean? Like, he is, you know, he is living the life. Hang ten, baby.

Rick: 5:49

got more of the Patrick Swayze look to him though, I'll give him

Kaleem: 5:51

yes. What was Patrick's name in that movie? Come on. Oh, Brody. Brody. my gosh. Rick, our guest is the CEO and co founder of Remote How, which helps organizations make remote and hybrid work work. He's also the co founder and head of remote at the Remote First Institute. Listeners and viewers, please give a warm welcome to Iwo szapar! Let's go, bro! Let's this! We're doing this! Finally all studio audience settle down

Rick: 6:38

Take a pill, people. Let's chill out. Thank you.

Kaleem: 6:41

We finally got him on the show

Iwo: 6:43

guys, I need to say that that was A, the longest intro I've ever had, but then the best one as well. So,

Rick: 6:52

Well, we had to tell your life story to make it, uh, credible, if you

Kaleem: 6:55

Right, I mean we figure ten minutes of the intro and like five minutes of the podcast that's

Rick: 7:01

Yeah, yeah. You know what's funny is that, Kaleem, you went out of your way to say, Hey, don't mention your name during the intro, and then you mentioned his name. So we'll have to cut that out. Ha ha ha!

Iwo: 7:14

no, it's really, it's a, it's an honor to be here. We finally make it happen. So, uh, Really excited to be here.

Rick: 7:22

yeah, we're so happy that the stars have aligned and you're able to meet with us. So let's, let's dig right into this thing,

Kaleem: 7:30

Audience, we've been trying to book Iwo for over a year and a half. Okay. So if you want to get to him, if you want to get to him, y'all need to get working now. I suggest that. I

Rick: 7:39

Yes. He is that important. Yes.

Iwo: 7:44

trying to, trying to optimize, you know, like after, after having two burnouts, I learned that, you need to say no more often. You need to organize things in a different way. But, I'm still learning. I'm still learning, but, uh, It's, it's a pleasure that we are here, so let's, let's have some fun.

Rick: 8:06

Yes, man. You know, I will say if you don't start booking now, if you don't book him soon, you're going to get the AI version. So

Iwo: 8:14

yeah, yeah, for sure.

Rick: 8:14

to make that happen. So, so Iwo, I mean, I'm, I'm fascinated by your history, but the 15 countries thing, I mean, holy cow, what has it been like, making that claim? Like tell me some of the things, some of the places, your experiences.

Kaleem: 8:31

Oh, first name him. First name him. Let's go. You got, you got the list. We know. Yes. Alphabetically, please. Um, first name him. Let's go. I know

Iwo: 8:41

yeah, yeah. So, so it all started when we moved to US. So we lived in Austin, one and a half year. Then, uh, we moved to, uh, to many countries in Asia. So we lived in Vietnam, in Cambodia, in Thailand, bit of Hong Kong. Then we went back to Europe, Poland, Portugal, Spain. Then we went back to Asia. We were in Vietnam for. Over a year, almost one and a half year during COVID, then came back. Then, another place in Spain, again, Portugal, whatever it is, Italy, Morocco, I don't know if we're at 15 or not, but, uh, Columbia. Yeah,

Kaleem: 9:25

I think you hit it. You're close. If 13 whatever, it's

Rick: 9:29

Right, right, right. So were the, were these all by choice or were you following opportunities?

Iwo: 9:34

no, no choice. So we, we, uh, so when we. So the first one was the opportunity to be precise because we I was working for a company that offered me to relocate from Europe to us. So that was kind of like the start of the journey. But then when we started remote how in late 2017, it was our mission to empower everyone to have the freedom of choice where, where, when, where and when you work. And obviously how you work. And this is also how we, ran our, our company. So we had a team that was spread across multiple time zones and we were also able to live in different places. So that was the starting point. And then from there, it turned into the beginning that the digital nomad thing in like 2018, 19, 20, but then we kind of got tired of like constantly moving and changing places. So, in March, 2020, we happened to be in Vietnam. And you know what happened in March 2020. You may have have heard of this thing called COVID.

Kaleem: 10:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: 10:43

I vaguely remember

Iwo: 10:45

Vaguely. Yeah. So we were in Vietnam and March 2020. And then it kind of forced us to stay there for a longer time. And then we decided to stay even longer. And that was probably like one of the best, Times we ever had and I experienced something totally different. So, uh, Vietnam, big place in, in, in my heart.

Kaleem: 11:05

Iwo. Iwo. Quick question. Like, this is before the pandemic where you decided, Hey, Let's go somewhere else. what was the thing that kind of made you decide, Hey, we want to kind of be digital nomads. Was there something just this, um, infatuation with just travel? Like, like what?

Iwo: 11:25

So I think, there were like multiple factors, starting from, chasing the sun. so that would be like number one, then, uh, number two would be, learning about other cultures and places in a different way that you just like travel for holidays for like a week or two. It's totally different than being somewhere for a few weeks, few months and living with locals. So I think that's that. That's the second thing. then obviously if you can be in different places, um, you can also do different things on a day to day basis. So it's not always the same surroundings, not always the same hobbies, not always the same people. I think. Then another aspect is people we've met literally, I would say the, probably if I sit down and write it down thousands of people throughout these years from different continents, different cultures, different backgrounds. and we've, with a lot of them, we, we keep in touch. And I think this is a huge. Enrichment to your perspective of the world as compared if you were born in a single in a specific country and you live there for I'm not saying that this is good or bad. I'm just saying that. If you experience something like this, you sometimes have a different point of view. so I think that was, something that we maybe didn't, understand, but we started to really appreciate as we experience it on a daily basis. And then obviously as a, as a wrap up, um, being able to work in, in different locations, gives you, at least for us, it was a happiness factor. So it was, positively impacting the wellbeing. Of course there were ups and downs like everywhere. I, during the time I had to burnouts. Uh, but that's more related to overworking rather than just like. Changing places.

Rick: 13:21

Right.

Kaleem: 13:22

sun and perspectives. I mean, those are the two things for me. I love chasing the sun. It took me a second to, yeah, it took me a second to connect what you're saying. I was like, Oh yeah, hell yeah. Hell yeah. I went, we, we know about no sun up there in Maine, dog. There's no sun sometimes, you know,

Rick: 13:36

why we both live in the south now.

Kaleem: 13:39

but yeah, that perspective, you know, it's, you're right. It, there is no right or wrong way. If you grow up and stay in your hometown, that's great. I mean, that's how You know cultures have grown over centuries and that's fine but how you talk about Connecting and experiencing other things and just growing a different perspective I hadn't really thought too much about that when it comes to traveling and you're absolutely right.

Iwo: 14:07

yeah. And I think there is this, like having, discussed this topic many times with my friends. It's a lot of people dream about, Oh, I would love to be a digital nomad. Slow Matt. This is kind of like the transition that we also made to like. Be slower and being in a single place, et cetera, et cetera. so there's a lot of talk, but then especially before, before COVID when remote work was not that, big of a thing, it was a lot of dreams, but it was hard to fulfill these dreams. And it doesn't also mean that if someone wanted to do something that that was right for them. They thought it would be so cool to be in Vietnam on the beach or Philippines, whatever Thailand, right. And have this photo and you're saying like you're, when you're lying down with your computer and like working, but then we met a bunch of people that actually did it. It was. In many cases, a risky move, they needed to sacrifice many things, et cetera. And they were like, nah, you know what, actually, this is not for me, but at least they tried. So the majority were just like talking and thinking, oh, it would be so cool. And in many cases, it turned into like complaining about their own lives versus the others that tried. And then either they loved it and they're still on the road, or the others are like, this is not for me, but at least I tried. So now I know.

Rick: 15:34

Now they have the taste for it, so. if you would, tell us about the origins of Remote How, and what was the motivation to start that company?

Iwo: 15:42

Yeah. So, um, at the time, kind of like two things were going on in my life. So one on the professional side, I was trying to Talent in Austin to join my team. And it was really hard, because Austin was already a quite a competitive, market for talent. And at the same time, we had a bunch of conversation in the office with other millennials at the time that it would be super cool to be able to work remotely. Which was then again, also one of the, Motivations that I had privately. So I started to think like if there is a business case where you can make businesses happier and people happier, by opening up to, talent from anywhere, and then also allowing your people to, to work in different places.

Kaleem: 16:24

Iwo, what year is this roughly? Wow. So, so just to clarify. So, everybody, he's having this vision three years before the pandemic. Three years before. So, he's like, you know, hey, wouldn't it be great if people were happy at work? Imagine that

Iwo: 16:44

that, like I had over like 40 calls with different HR and like C level people. and there are like basically two conclusions. Like one is that, Uh, no, this is not for us. We don't believe in this. We prefer office, whatever. And then the other group way smaller was like, yeah, maybe, but you know, we don't know how to do it. Right. So that's how remote, how it was born. Now kudos to my wife. There's she invented the name.

Rick: 17:12

Oh, good.

Kaleem: 17:13

Hey, shout out. Shout out. What's your name? Let's give it. Let's give her some

Iwo: 17:16

Hola. Hola.

Kaleem: 17:17

Hola.

Iwo: 17:18

short. Hola. Yeah.

Kaleem: 17:19

Alexandra. Good work on that. Good

Iwo: 17:21

yes. So, um, this is how we started. And for the first, two and a half years, we've been going through, a lot of, uh, I would say different projects and products that we built. So we started with the remote future summit. That was, before COVID that the largest, virtual conference on remote work. Then we launched the remote have academy, which was again, world's first certification program for remote workers. And then we launched, um the marketplace with remote and hybrid work experts, for consulting projects. So there was like a lot of stuff that we've been building. But the common denominator was like to enable both individuals, teams and companies, to be better, um, in how they operate in a distributed environment.

18:13

We'll be right back after these words. 2020 was no joke. It changed the game for everyone. Workplace flexibility is no longer a perk, but an expectation. In fact, a recent study showed that a flexible schedule is more important than salary. Yeah, you heard that right? Employees want choices over cash. If you're a startup or a small business that doesn't have a remote work strategy, stop what you're doing right now and complete our free tree assessment at blendmeinc. com. Since 2013, BlendMe Inc. Has been helping small businesses improve the remote employee experience. Let's stay local, but compete global. Visit us at blendmeinc. com. That's blendmeinc. com. Ever wonder how certain ads catch your attention or get stuck in your head? It's because the person voicing it knows how to tell the story. Maybe they're telling you to stumble over to Sullivan St. Patrick's day for green beers, Irish car bombs, and con beef all freaking day. Don't miss the deal of a lifetime this President's Day at Callahan Ford. Savings like these should be unconstitutional. Or maybe Come wash away your troubles here at Cooters Car Wash. We ain't no soap opry, but you'll be singing high praises. Hoo wee, Cooters! Or, here at Brooks Brothers Mortuary, we put the fun in funeral. Everyone is just dying to join us. Alright, well that's a bit much, but for you, I'll do it. I'm Rick Haney, and if you're a business owner looking for a creative voice in your marketing, look no further. I'll tell your story the way you want it told. Follow along at RemotelyWeAreOne or visit my website at rickhaney. me for more information. And now, back to the show.

Kaleem: 20:20

Wow. So I met you from one of your conferences and it was a great conference. Well organized. Kudos to you. Um, and then also the consulting program. I joined that as well. And it was pretty impressive. The number of, people and the number of, Experts that you were able to reach out to and connect with and build a network of, you're talking some of the top experts in the world. You were able to bring in to remote. How, who are some, you know, if it's possible, if it's all right, what were some of the companies that you all kind of worked with? Um, and you know, do you remember any challenges that you were able to help companies with?

Iwo: 21:05

Oh, now you're opening up a question where I can be talking for hours. So I will try to keep it, uh, keep it short and still interesting.

Kaleem: 21:13

maybe something that, um, maybe something that was a little bit more surprising, like, you know, Hey, yeah, we've worked with all these other companies, but this one case, you know, maybe something that you're like most proud of, or the thing was really surprising, you know,

Iwo: 21:27

Yeah. So I think in general, so we worked like you mentioned in the beginning with like the largest ones like Walmart, Microsoft, ING Bank. But then we also worked with various startups, scale ups, SMB. So, we literally worked with tiniest and the largest and everything in between, right? So we had a full spectrum. And I think one of the common denominators, which was, uh, you know, Surprise to me. And it's the same case today is that it's really hard to change things as simple as that.

Kaleem: 22:01

Yes.

Iwo: 22:04

change is freaking tough.

Kaleem: 22:06

Yeah, really hard. Organizational change is

Iwo: 22:09

yeah, organization, change is extremely hard, but also changing work habits on the individual level is also hard. So it's kind of this. You have this vision and you think you can give tools and frameworks and knowledge and support and basically everything, and it will happen. But then the reality catches on and you might be, you might be finishing the project and be like, everything is done. We like our, our consultants deliver training, build processes, did good, did coaching, like you have access to all what you need. And then you leave and things. Are not going in the way they're supposed to be right. And this is out of your control. Like you did what you were supposed to do. The customer is happy. And what to do with this next, right? So this is this goes beyond remote hybrid distributed. This is just a general challenge, right? So that's why I was extremely interested. When it's been already one and a half year ago when openly I revealed, the ChatGPT, uh, three at the time because they started to see that. Could be this power. Um, that would turn the best practices that we've been talking about, like as subject matter experts, and you've been doing this as well on kind of autopilot, right? That it can really provide the ongoing guidance and support to, uh, to people. because. Before then it was tough, but kind of, coming back to the initial question. So the number one surprise that the change is hard. And the second one is kind of related to how companies saw remote change remote distributed, whatever, in 2020, then in 2021, 2022, 2023. And now I would say that we're still in phases and they're repeating. So there's like remote is okay. No remote is not okay. Office remote is okay. No remote is not okay. Like when you're going back and forth, back and forth. So I thought before. Before COVID that's like once you join, like once you see that this is the future, you're like consequently going step by step to do it. But right now I see that, it's not the case. And then companies can completely reverse, their previous, previous policies and stance on this. So that would be a surprise, uh, surprise number two, from last couple of years.

Rick: 24:45

Well, very briefly about it just a moment ago, but I know it's a huge part of everything that you're doing right now, so can you talk a little bit more about the impact of AI that it's having on remote work and why people need to embrace it instead of fear it? It feels like everyone's afraid of it.

Iwo: 25:03

Yeah.

Rick: 25:03

embracing it the way they should.

Iwo: 25:05

Oh yeah. 100%. So, uh, probably we've all heard this quote that AI won't replace you. AI, uh, it will replace people that are not using AI. So it will stay forever and it will, change a lot of jobs. It will also replace some of the jobs. So we've been talking about re skilling and up skilling for decades, but right now you're hitting the wall in certain areas. You can hit the wall or you're hitting if you're working in customer success or recruitment. I think those air based on that latest report by deal a few months ago that you can already see that the most layers are happening in these two areas. And

Kaleem: 25:49

Oh, like, well, hang on. You're saying like, you're already, we're already seeing the impacts of AI on like customer support. I mean, I think I can understand that. I have a question. I can use an AI bot to help me get through my, my challenges. And then what was the other space you said? You said Interesting. Interesting.

Iwo: 26:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's already happening, just not at the large scale, uh, yet most companies are still, in the phase of like experimenting, doing pilots, understanding how we can really impact, what they're doing. And if you look at. What is the number one actually question to you? What is the number one challenge for organizations according to Fortune 500 CEOs in 2024? Number one challenge, a single word. You go.

Kaleem: 26:38

Oh, probably, probably AI, AI,

Iwo: 26:43

Okay, Rick.

Rick: 26:44

Um, I think I would have to say the same thing to be truthful.

Iwo: 26:48

Okay, so you both are wrong. And it's productivity.

Rick: 26:52

Wow. Okay.

Iwo: 26:53

The number one challenge. Yes, it's a report by Atlassian, released two months ago, how to be more productive, right? How to be more productive. And, um, Like what you said is true. When you look at how you can fix this. And of course, like AI is the solution or it can be one of the solutions. So if you look big picture, it's no longer about remote hybrid distributed. It's no longer about office. It's about totally redefining how we're going to work and how machines will either enhance or Some of knowledge workers and for some you would need to redefine, your career, right? And of course, as you can see, from previous, um, technological changes on the market, it takes years. Sometimes it takes decades. In this case, it would be rather years. But the AA adoption will be accelerating in a similar way how the AI in general is getting smarter, right? So, you're hitting this curve and it's like exponential growth. So if you're listening this, uh, today, and you're not using AI daily with your tasks, start doing this. And my, the best advice that I can give is to figure out specific tasks. You can use the framework called jobs to be done where AI would be helping you get this job done, like a mini workflow, mini process where AI will be guiding you, to make this a more pleasant experience for you, or to make this happen faster or to have a better quality. Right. But look for use cases. Simple, small things, right?

Kaleem: 28:35

you're talking about AI remote work. You also started the Remote First Institute. Um,

Iwo: 28:42

I like starting things.

Kaleem: 28:44

Yes, you do. Yes, you do. So you've been doing this for a while. Where do you think all of this is heading? Every, you know, guests we have, we try to talk about like where, where they see these things heading. But from your perspective, just knowing the things that you have, have learned, especially kind of being in that AI space, you have kind of a little bit different angle of, of where the industry is going. Like what is this impact of remote work having on the industry? And where are we going? You hear all of these different things like, Oh, we're going into the office force return. Then you see these office occupancy reports and they're half empty of skyscrapers, empty all over the world. And it's not just the United States. You have China with empty skyscrapers as well. And I'm sure you have some cities where you're at. next? Iwo. Yeah.

Iwo: 29:36

That's a very good question. And I don't know, honestly, I would love to say, yeah, this is what, what will happen because Coming back to what I said previously, you have these like cycles where we think where stuff is going, but then it's going the other direction and in six months, right. But that was happening, before we knew that, uh, that AI is going to be such a big thing. I think this is the kind of, yes, last year companies were already like talking about it, thinking about it. But this year, this is like, okay. Now we need to adjust our strategy because there is this massive, massive, massive disruption way larger than remote like working from anywhere, right? That would impact us. So I'm still going back and forth on the question of who is dictating terms right now on the market, if it's employees or employers probably today for more and more positions, it's. It's the employer, as an example for years, software engineers were dictating all the terms. I want to have everything times 10. Right. And right now, if you look at the market, just specifically here, and of course they had the remote work option. They can work anywhere, basically, any, anywhere, anytime. But then if you look at people, they're entering the job market, today, and they would like to be a software engineer already, or maybe they're already a post university in that field, etc. It's not easy to get a job in general, right? If you're a

Kaleem: 31:13

Yes. Yeah. It's hard. Very difficult. just getting a job.

Iwo: 31:18

Just getting a job, right? So then if you again, zoom out and look at where we are going office, not office, like it's the time of a lot of unknowns and the things that we would say, Yeah, this is certain, like becoming software engineer and you will have a very good career. You would say a year ago, two years ago, 100 percent right? But Right now, it's no longer the case, right? A CEO of NVIDIA said that it's better to learn agriculture than computer science, which I agree. So, um,

Kaleem: 31:48

Yeah, AI can write code. I mean,

Iwo: 31:50

yeah, yeah, it can write code, it can do a lot of things. So, um, and again, we are at the very early days. So if you tried, an AI tool and it didn't give you what you wanted it, a either means that you prompted it wrong. So you didn't give enough context. So it's your fault, or just the system is not good enough yet, but it's today. And it's basically becoming better and better. Every, every day, every, every week, right

Kaleem: 32:18

So you're going to take a stance. Is that what you're saying? You're not even going to eat block and bridge this question this whole time. You're like, ah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nope. Next question. Did you just, you've been watching way too much American politics and European politics. You pulled a block and bridge bro. You were just like, so you know what I think the future, are we even talking to Iwo right now? Is this even Iwo This is it.

Iwo: 32:42

You don't know. You don't know. It's a very

Rick: 32:44

the children.

Kaleem: 32:49

No, you're absolutely right. Like if things move so quickly, um, I swore probably in an, in 21, like, you know, of June of 21, I was like, yo, the whole world is going to stay remote. Nobody is going like no company's ever going to want people back. Like I thought for sure it was over. Like the game was over. I thought at that point and, I was 100 percent wrong and you're, you throw in AI. who knows? Maybe we've returned to the office cause the AI needs our, you know, bone marrow or something like that. Like maybe we got to go, you know what I'm saying? Like they, maybe they figure out AI needs bone marrow to be more human. So we got to go into the offices to be freaking sucked of our bone marrow. Who knows, but you're

Rick: 33:32

Oh boy.

Kaleem: 33:33

you can't, tell. I was watching some sci fi last night.

Rick: 33:36

I was gonna say, what have you been watching? Yeah.

Kaleem: 33:40

Perfect.

Rick: 33:42

Iwo, this is my favorite part of the show. Can you share with us, uh, a comical or inspiring moment you have had while working remotely?

Kaleem: 33:54

1515

Iwo: 33:55

I, I, I had a, I had, I had a few, but one that really, Stuck in my head was in the early days, uh, oh, I didn't mention Indonesia where we're in Bali. It was 2018. We're actually at Lombok. So another, another island. And, at that time We were raising our round, our pre seed. I was the first and the last, then we almost died twice as a company and then bootstrapped for the last three, four years. But at the time it was like investors in the search, let's do it. And I was, um, I was, riding a motorcycle. And we were about to get on the ferry. There are like hundreds of locals around us with their chickens and pigs and other motorcycles, whatever. And then this investor is calling me and I'm like, should I take it or not? Should, and he's calling me on video as well. And I'm like, okay, YOLO, whatever. And then just, we did a call and then just, we did a call and there was a very, I would say, a good bonding experience because we didn't just talk about business. So that was probably one of the first calls because it was in the beginning of our traveling. And I was like, Yeah, I wouldn't be pretending that I'm somewhere else or I'm, I don't know, in a cozy cafe, whatever. I'm, I'm just here and this is like totally normal. So, um, I think that was a small. Milestone to then how I operated and had calls from really, really weird and interesting places, but also with some magical views on the nature, et cetera. So, uh,

Kaleem: 35:35

Wait, hang on just to clarify. you're riding on a motorcycle. You're cruising this pigs and shit, cluckling all over the place and chickens running around that just have a cluckling. Yeah. And yeah, you, you can, Hey, you can hear, you feel your cell phone. Do you pull over or are you just pulling some gangsta ass ish where you're holding the cell phone up and riding the motorcycle one handed need to understand

Iwo: 36:07

yeah, yeah. So in general, I had this trick that I was putting my phone in my helmet. So I didn't need to like hold it, right? This is the something that I learned later when we lived in Vietnam. And this is Mike was my ongoing thing. But at that time for this particular conversation, we were boarding the ferry. So we were like driving it slowly, but there was like a lot of chaos around us.

Kaleem: 36:30

right. Right. Right. So you're on the motorcycle getting on the ferry.

Iwo: 36:34

Yes. Like a very local, small ferry was going between one Indonesian island to another

Kaleem: 36:40

you're getting seasick. You're getting seasick. And so

Iwo: 36:43

Yeah.

Kaleem: 36:43

phone or did you go cameras off?

Iwo: 36:45

No, camera on, camera on. No, no, no. Because he went camera on. So I'm like, okay, let's do it.

Rick: 36:52

my gosh.

Iwo: 36:53

talk serious business.

Kaleem: 36:54

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I would love for you to invest a couple hundred million into my company. Hang on. Let me get this. Check it out. No worries. Don't worry about him. Just on a ferry. That is that's out of curiosity. Did you get the round?

Iwo: 37:11

With him. Yeah, he, he, he got

Kaleem: 37:13

What? Wow. What a story, sir.

Rick: 37:17

Yes,

Kaleem: 37:18

round of applause. Yes, that's impressive. Wow. Damn, I guess you wouldn't have told the story if the dude was like, nah,

Iwo: 37:27

I would. I say

Rick: 37:28

passed.

Iwo: 37:29

I've failed so many times, but that was not this moment.

Rick: 37:32

Oh, good, good, good.

Kaleem: 37:34

one, man.

Rick: 37:35

So, uh, Iwo Szapar, where can our listeners and viewers find you?

Iwo: 37:39

I think LinkedIn is the best place. Let's connect there. And if there's a anyway, how I can help, I'm always more than happy to do so.

Rick: 37:48

Well, you've definitely helped us by being on our show. We appreciate all of your insights and your stories and your experiences. Man, oh man, thank you so much.

Iwo: 37:56

it was a lot of fun. Thank you so much guys for having me.

Kaleem: 37:59

Awesome, man. Come back anytime. Peace.